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11 February 2009

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nilcypher

Nice article!

While I'm loathe to tell anyone that their interpretation of something is wrong, Ligman seems to be seeing things where they don't exist.

There are may things that you have to give Portal credit for, but I really don't think that 'subversive feminism' is one of them.

Thomas

It's significant, I think, that Faith got 'shopped by forum goons into something more "attractive." Not that something similar couldn't happen to a character like Noriko which is already blatantly sexualized. But it did seem to me like it was a regressive reaction to the character, as if some of the audience was unprepared for a female lead in an action game that wasn't so overtly aimed at the male gaze, and needed to take steps to "fix" it.

Good post.

Brinstar

Ligman's interpretation can't really be "wrong" because it's, well, an interpretation. I consider some of her points unsupported because of the way I viewed and experienced the two games; my interpretation differed from hers.

I may not agree with Kris Ligman, but I also think it's quite dismissive and disrespectful of her perspective for you to say that she's "seeing things where they don't exist". That's an incredibly loaded phrase to trot out to voice support for my opinion. That phrase has been historically used by people with privilege like straight white men to oppress women, queers, people of colour, and other marginalised groups when the marginalised folks complain about sexism, homophobia, racism, etc.

Thirdly, I actually do agree with Ligman's view that Portal is subversively feminist.

nilcypher

I meant no disrespect, and I certainly wasn't trying to present the idea that the depiction of women in video games is fine the way it is. What I was referring to with my 'things that aren't there' comment was the 'exoticification' of Faith in the marketing for Mirror's Edge. I think both Chell and Faith are good depictions of female characters, but as you said, for different reasons.

I may have been a bit quick to dismiss the feminist message in Portal, but I'm not totally sure exactly what the message actually is. I think you could make a case that Portal is an indictment of the man-hating, militant feminist stereotype. It's something that I'd have to give more thought to to be honest.

I'm very sorry if I caused any offence with my comments though.


nilcypher

What I think is often missed is that 'shopped image of Faith was supposed to illustrate the differences in the standards of beauty between Japan and the Western World at large. It got caught up in a 'hur-hur, we gave her big boobies' snowball that completely eclipsed the original point.

Ed


"Conventional marketing "wisdom" in the industry is that sexy women on game boxes attracts (young, male) customers and will sell bajillions of copies."

You seen the Merkel doll by Mattel?
Perhaps the obsession of definition in opposition is past its sell by date. Perhaps sex is a simple part of life and perhaps its in inevitable part of not being self replicating single cell life forms?

Also your phrase, people with privilege, what does that mean? You are aware that privilege is a product of history and that history is a product of violence and that violence is a product of life.
You flew to Japan, on a Boeing or an Airbus, a product of the war industry. You eat 3 meals a day, and you work in the computer industry. These privileges are a product of the USMC and the other weapons of governance that your country possess and utilises. You are a person of privilege and sound like a racist when you use that phrase willy nilly and without an understanding that the ability to live in the life you have is based on dominance.

Brinstar

A problem with this example is that the fan illustration of Faith wasn't made by a Japanese person. As far as I am aware, the artist was a Korean American. The artist intended it to portray what he saw as Asian standards of beauty, not specifically Japanese. I think in the end, that fan rendition of Faith didn't make much of a point.

Brinstar

Your usage of the term privilege is not the same as the way I have used it in this post. Since you seem not to have read my Comment Policy, and you are obviously ignorant about the concept of privilege, I will refer you to what I mean by privilege. Please read this post for a primer on privilege. If you decide to comment again, please educate yourself before doing so.

Brinstar

Thank you, nilcypher. I just wanted to clarify that I think Ligman's perspective is just different because she sees things differently, and also to clarify the issues I had with the way you phrased things.

I am not really sure where your thoughts about Chell and Portal are going, so I will refrain from comment, since it seems like you're still solifiying your thoughts.

Thanks for stopping by.

oliemoon

I'm not totally sure exactly what the message actually is. I think you could make a case that Portal is an indictment of the man-hating, militant feminist stereotype.

Ligman lays it out in her original post: the default avatar for most games is a white male. By making the avatar in Portal a woman of color, the developer's subverted the standard practice, and since the identity of your avatar was not immediately apparent when playing the game, for many gamers it was surprise (given their expectations of a white male) to discover that Chell was instead a WOC.

Whether the developer's intended this or not, by not playing into people's gendered and racial expectations, they probably (hopefully) challenged a lot of people to re-consider why they held those expectations and assumptions about their unseen avatar in the first place. This is what is meant by "subversive feminism."

I don't know where you are trying to go with the man-hating militant strawfeminist though.

oliemoon

These privileges are a product of the USMC and the other weapons of governance that your country possess and utilises. You are a person of privilege and sound like a racist when you use that phrase willy nilly and without an understanding that the ability to live in the life you have is based on dominance.

Holy fuck are you an idiot.

1. Classism =/= racism. Not a difficult concept really, but you clearly missed it.

2. "Your country"...and just which country are you referring to? I don't think you realize just how clueless this reveals you to be.

3. El-oh-el at your assumption that brinstar isn't aware of and doesn't understand her class privilege.

Jon Lupen

Regina already Nailed everything on the head and drove it home, so I'll just add a few observations of my own, having played many a Valve games.

First a little info gems for your thought. Portal started as a third-party mod. Late in it's development cycle, Valve stepped in, bought the rights, hired the individuals that where developing it, gave them the source engine, polished it up, and shipped it out, same with Left 4 Dead, and what will probably be the story with Black Mesa Source.

Valve games are often plot driven (Portal hardly being plot driven). Half Life, and it's expansions, Blue Shift and Opposing Force all came to a close after a dramatic series of events, but without developing the main character, or any other characters for the most part.

Half Life 2 is a somewhat different story. Valve developes many of it's charcters (Dr. Mossman, Alyx, Eli Vance, Dr. Kleiner, Barney Calhoun) provided you AREN'T playing them. You learn little about Gordan Freeman other than his background. He never talks, never makes any choices on his own, nothing. He is the ultimate in empty husks possessed by the player to drive the plot forward. Chell is Portal is the same story as Gordan Freeman and only exists as a body for the player to control.

Developing and personalizing (see what I did there? If you got that your clever) it;s main characters it's just not something Valve does. Their games focus more on events and game play, where as Mirror's Edge is centered around the character and her story. Portal is a first person puzzler, Mirror's Edge is a first person narrative platformer. Mirror's Edge and Portal share a female protagonist and the name of their respective theme/credit songs, but that's where it ends. Saying two drastically different games in two respectively different Genres of games is beyond fair and breaks pretty much all the rules.

thesimplicity

Wonderful counterpoint. You hit on all the thoughts I had while reading Kris Ligman's piece.

Mirror's Edge is very progressive for exactly the reason you state: it features an Asian woman in a lead role without the dismal characterization that normally accompanies such a position. That is something we should encourage, not dismiss due to passing similarities to established works.

nilcypher

I'm having a really hard time actually putting the idea into words, but essentially GLaDOS represents the stereotype of feminists, hateful and willing to go to extreme lengths to attain her freedom, in this case, the murder of everyone in the facility in a bid to 'free' herself.

Chell on the other hand, represents a much more rational, and in my limited experience a much more accurate depiction of a feminist. She is smart and capable in her own terms, without resorting to the extremes that GLaDOS goes to.

GLaDOS's murder of the scientists shows that her extreme methods are ultimately self defeating, as while she is free of their influence, is unable to actually do anything with her new found freedom because she finds herself isolated, while Chell is capable of truly achieving something because she isn't confined by her own prejudices.

There are still holes in it, and I worry that I may have a far too simplistic view of feminist issues, but that's the essence of the idea.

nilcypher

I do have to hold my hands up and admit that I didn't read Ligman's article. Probably should have done before I started shooting my mouth off.

I'm going to remedy that now.

DSimon

One thing I found interesting about Portal was how, although it stuck to Valve's usual technique of not characterizing the protagonist, it makes a point of making the player aware of the body they're inhabiting. You never once see Gordon's reflection or picture when playing the Half-Life games, but you regularly see yourself as Chell in Portal, by looking at your own body through portals.

This is utilized in gameplay, for example as part of the process in the early stages of acclimating the player to what portals are. It's also used in the plot, i.e. the Curiosity Core asking "Hey, what are those things on your legs?" about Chell's spring devices, which the player wouldn't normally know about.

So, in this respect, Portal is like Mirror's Edge: they're both first-person games that use novel approaches to make the player aware that they're inhabiting a human body, not just a floating viewpoint.

Ico

I'm honestly surprised anyone would find Faith problematic in the exotifying way Ligman seems to interpret her. Mine is a family of gamers, and we are half-Korean. I can probably count on one hand the depictions of Asian women I have seen in games (or WOC at all for that matter), and as you note, these depictions are most often terrible.

When we saw Faith, my sisters and I were delighted. "Finally," we said, "an Asian woman in a video game who's *not* a hypersexualized object." It's the first time I've been able to play a game with an Asian female protagonist who actually looks like a real human being. Who looks, in other words, a little bit like me, or like someone I could imagine being. Wow. It was great.

All of which is to say that as another (half) Asian, I am chiming in to agree with you. I'd love to see more games like Mirror's Edge. It kind of distresses me to see Ligman take such a view of it.

Jessie

Great article!

(I can't wait to get my hands on Mirror's Edge. It's so rare for a game to be awesome and ALSO not constantly insult me and people I care about!)

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